Published on the Doomstead Diner on September 8, 2015
Discuss the results at the Survey Table inside the Diner
As our Global Economic System spins downward here, one of the most important near-term questions is what money will work and for how long?
When the initial phase of the economic collapse got underway in 2008, numeous pundits including John Williams of Shadow Stats, the Tyler Durdens from Zero Hedge and Speedy Gonzalo Lira all predicted imminent Hyperinflation of the Dollar resulting from Quantitative Easing by Da Fed, which never occurred.
In recent weeks however, we have seen big moves in various currencies from around the world, mostly depreciating against the Almighty Dollar. Even the Chinese removed the peg of the Yuan/Renminby to the Dollar and depreciated their currency, to attempt to remain competitive in the export market with other cheap labor countries. Venezuela's currency is rapidly approaching worthlessness, and the Brazilian Real is starting to look like their old Cruzeiros. As far as the developing world is concerned, it's a Race to the Bottom these days.
Far as the individual is concerned though, it's important to know which currencies will fall in value fastest, and of course try to have savings in currencies which will last longest. There are location problems with this of course, since say if you hold Swissies but live in Montana, it's unlikely the local Walmart will take your Swissies for a Can of Beans. Even if you do believe the Chinese are going to Inherit the Earth, is holding Renminby a good idea?
What about the Precious Metals? Will they be functional as currency once the last of the current Fiat regimes collapses?
Your opinions on these crucial questions of collapse are solicited in this week's Collapse SurveyTM.
The Refugee Crisis has been the HOT Topic in the world of Collapse over the last week. Besides myself, Tom Lewis (Daily Impact), Jason Heppenstall (22 Billion Energy Slaves) and Jim Kunstler (Clusterfuck Nation) all weighed in on this topic, along with numerous other articles around the web, both from MSM and Alternative Media sources.
Here on the Diner, we identified this problem fairly early on in the Official Refugee Thread, begun by Eddie in May of 2015. It has of course escalated substantially since then, and we chronicled the escalation over the last few months in that thread.
This month as it escalated, I got together with a few of my fellow Collapse Bloggers and Authors, Ugo Bardi (Resource Crisis), Steve Ludlum (Economic Undertow) and Norman Pagett (The End of More) to discuss this issue.
After that, I also Ranted on the Refugee Crisis, since there is so much insanity going on with it this makes for good Rant Material.
So this is the history to date of the Refugee Crisis, but what of the FUTURE? What do Kollapsniks TM think will play out here, how and on what timeline? So in additon to all the rest, I worked up a Refugee Crisis Survey to get some feedback and numbers on this one.
Here is how it plays out according to Kollapsniks TM.
If you were in charge on the Hungarian Border or Italian Beaches, what would be your First Choice for handling the Tsunami of Refugees from MENA?
|Build Refugee Camps and solicit Food Aid from the Red Cross||Increase Taxes to send Food Aid to their home countries and set up Refugee Camps there||Shoot on sight any Refugees entering your country, including Women and Children||Mine and Fence all Borders including harbors and beaches||Shut down the Interrail between European Countries||Ship them back to where they came from as soon as they arrive (you pay the shipping with your taxes)||Give them all a Free Ticket to Germany or Sweden||Standard Deviation||Responses|
About 1/3rd of the respondents chose setting up Refugee Camps and soliciting aid from the Red Cross, which basically is the humane, traditional approach to this sort of situation. However, when the numbers grow large, this methodology tends to break down pretty quickly. In fact, it has broken down so quickly in Germany they shut down the borders in an attmept to control the problem, AND they are now housing at least some of the refugees at BUCHENWALD. Yes, that's right, one of the most infamous of the Concentration Camps from WWII, along with Auschwitz and Teresenstadt, where at least one Czech Politician has suggested would be a good repository for these refugees. What MESSAGE does this send, eh?
The next most popular idea was to give all the refugees a Free Ticket to Germany or Sweden, which definitely would be a cheaper alternative then trying to house all of them. This might have worked through Monday, when the Krauts shut down the border with Austria. They clearly are not going to keep taking all comers, and neither I suspect will Sweden.
The countries getting stuck with the refugees are those which simply do not have any real means to keep them out, Turkey currently has around 2 MILLION of them, and I'll bet Serbia is stacking up too. These Refugee Camps are of course Terrorist Breeding Grounds, accidents waiting to happen.
OK, on to Q2, a Yes/No question on whether Fences and Walls can do anything to resolve this problem. This is basically split right down the middle amongst Kollapsniks TM.
How long before Migration begins in earnest out of California to escape drought and water depletion?
|It has already begun.||1 year||3 years||5 years||10 years||>10 years||There will not be a migration out of California, water problems will be solved.||Standard Deviation||Responses|
Is Wall & Fence building, mining harbors and deploying military personel to secure borders going to have a significant effect in preventing or slowing migrations?
This is not a lot different than the Two Party problem of Repubtards vs Demodummies. If you are anywhere near a 50-50 split, nothing gets done, no side has a clear majority and you get locked up in decision making on anything. Anyone with a little MONEY can sway an election either way at the 50-50 line, you just need to buy a few votes or a few SCOTUS Judges. See the Bush-Gore Election for this.
My opinion on whether Fences and Walls are a good solution?
It's a waste of time and money, has never worked in the past and won't work now either. You can't man them and staff them economically and they are way easier to knock down then they are to build in the first place.
How long before the migration problem overwhelms the capacity of Europe to protect its borders and North America to seal the southern border with Mexico?
|It has already been overwhelmed||1 year||5 years||10 years||>10 years||The ability to prevent migration will not be overwhelmed, migration can always be prevented if you build and staff your defenses properly.||Standard Deviation||Responses|
Now onto the text responses! This is where it really gets interesting, because you start to see the ideological mindset at work here in various groups and types of people. 🙂
Warning! You may find some replies unpleasant!
|What other option would you choose first to handle the Refugee problem?|
|Anyone who exhibits aggressive behavior is sent back|
|Arrest them and ship them home.|
|Autonomous drones. Put chemical weapons back on the table.|
|build refugee camps|
|Citizenship and Integration|
|Crucifixion sends a message that's hard to miss.|
encourage the USA to receive
with open arms the "huddled
|Enlist aid from other countries to send to MENA home countries|
Europe: Work out who can handle new immigrants best and how and be fair to all countries.
But mainly: All those Middle Eastern countries that are doing nothing to help their neighbours, like Saudi Arabia, need to start taking the brunt of the burden.
|Find some agreement with other European countries to share the load more equally. Hire more people to process asylum requests.|
|Forced sterilization of all politicians and their families.|
|Give them guns and march them back to their own country|
|Highlight the actual problem that the USA is the real problem in the press, at the UN, the Vatican and every other outlet. Boycott US products.|
|Huge weapons tax on any manufacturer selling to the Middle East (like 50%)|
|I would start a infrastructure project, like updating and maintaining all the rail roads through labor (not just machines), and give every refugee a right to stay, with a small plot of land, if they volounteer for the work|
|In the longer term, quit interfering in foreign countries and making things worse.|
|Increase bombing in their home countries so you don't need to shoot them when they get to the new one.|
|Increase public awareness campaigns, try and get more people to donate to charities that support the refugee crisis, try to find jobs for some refugees|
|Increasing taxes for aid would be my second choice from the list.|
|It is irresponsible to just send them all to Germany or Sweden. The numbers of potential migrants from their home countries will never be depleted and so the "Tsunami" will never end (until Germany and Sweden are hellish shitholes)|
|Labor camps, get them fixing infrastructure.|
|lodge them in properties of value in excess of one million pounds sterling ,or European equivalent.|
|Make sure they knew that their was their was not sanctuary to be found for them in the poorer countries.|
Poverty, injustice, over breeding, overpopulation, suffering, oppression, military rule, squalor, torture, terror, massacre: these ancient evils feed and breed on one another in synergistic symbiosis. To break the cycles of pain at least two new forces are required: social equity – and birth control. Population control. Our Hispanic neighbors are groping toward this discovery. If we truly wish to help them we must stop meddling in their domestic troubles and permit them to carry out the social, political, and moral revolution which is both necessary and inevitable.
Or if we must meddle, as we have always done, let us meddle for a change in a constructive way. Stop every campesino at our southern border, give him a handgun, a good rifle, and a case of ammunition, and send him home. He will know what to do with our gifts and good wishes. The people know who their enemies are.
|Pressure the UN and EU to pick up the slack and help out.|
|Put them in China's Ghost Cities.|
|Secure Western Syria with UN troops to include US & Russian. Take the fight to the Islamic state. Secure Syrians and Iraqis in there homeland.|
|Ship them back.|
|Shoot on sight, border mines|
Short of actively trying to prevent war in their countries in the first place, instead of encouraging it to profit from arms sales and reduced labour costs in Europe (we could all see this coming years ago):
Build Refugee Camps and Increase Taxes (probably not necessary) for food Aid here.
|Solve the problems in their home country|
|Stop attacking other countries|
|Stop bombing the bejesus out of their homes|
|Stop imperialistic wars and the consumption of fossil fuels.|
stop the 'west' from funding the unrest. Tee heee…………….
when living creatures are caged together the become stressed and eat each other. You are right, this is a wicked problem. As we knock hard against limits things cannot end with enough for all.
|Take out actors who are forcing people to migrate. Isis comes to mind.|
|There is no good option|
|try to lessen our government's involvement with generating rip-off of their country's resources.|
|Try to solicit clerks from other European countries to help with processing the refugees|
|UNCHR refugee camps close to home countries. Much cheaper and a chance to repatriate the refugees.|
|Use nuclear weapons on north Africa to kill as many as possible.|
|Well, since we gave up completely, long ago, on logic-driven "social policy" and most governments are treating their populations like shit through the use of barbaric policing, there is no real option. We're doomed to unthinking policies and to being told what we will accept. Obviously MENA could function better, but privileged people have benefitted from shitty exploitative global policies, so now they apparently, deserve to have their lives disrupted (even tho they had no real say in these policies). Anyone, from here on out, with stupid ideas to exploit others in ways that severely disrupts a decent way of life, should be jailed in public squares where the rest of us can spit on them and poke them with sticks. However, at this point, we're doomed.|
|Wow what the fuck even is this survey.|
|Donald Trump has a platform of Deporting Migrants. Can this platform be implemented, and if so how? (Text Response)|
Being a non US citizen I am not up to date on the platform itself.
I can only see it ending in bodies though.
|Building a wall|
|Donald Trump is an incoherent fuckwit.|
|Doubt it, too many leftie losers|
Enforce existing laws. Most will self deport.
Use homeland security to hunt down and dump the rest in Mexico – regardless where they have come from.
First you have to enforce the laws already on the books.
The people who employ illegal migrants should be fines and imprisoned… the migrants will not come if their is nothing for them here.
Then start making the deportation stream line and efficient.
|Give them back Califonia.|
|he is a twat|
|He will threaten them with his hair monster.|
|His ideas will not work.|
I can only see this policy be executed on the condition that there is a false flag attack against the US that is blamed on Mexican terrorists. The attack would give cover for the mass deportation agenda that would never be acceptable to the majority of Americans.
The plight of millions of
A huge migration of dispossessed people within Mexico could be disruptive to their politics as usual.
|I fear it would take a violent form, shipping migrants on huge boats, probably with mass casualties|
|I have no idea what Trump's plan is|
|I have no knowledge on the subject|
|I think that platform is unworkable mostly.|
|I've no idea. I'm not American so I don't know about this.|
|Illegal migrants should be repatriated to their homelands. Mexico uses the US as a means to get rid of its poor and criminal class. Anyone with a criminal record needs to be sent back immediately as a good start. Build prisons in Mexico and send all these criminals we are supporting back to where they came from. I has to be cheaper. Pretty expensive jobs program here in the US.|
|It can be implemented at the point of a gun. If enough people support the Donald the plan will be implemented, if not it will fail in a film at 11 extravaganza of tear gas riot police and screams of refugee lives matter.|
|It will impede an already broke and overloaded systems and increase collapse.|
|It will not be possible, there are too many migrants and attempts of deportation will result in violence.|
|No – he's blowing smoke|
|No, it cannot. There is too much political opposition in the United States to do anything of scale no matter your political party/ideology.|
|No, It's too late.|
|No, there are too many|
|No, there are too many migrants for that.|
|No. Congress would write and bill, make a law and then not fund it.|
|No. It is an exercise in absurdity.|
No….he is a moron who thinks the presidency is about snapping his fingers and having others jump.
He would be very unhappy with reality… and if fact has no desire to actually be POTUS, he is currently just drumming up free publicity for his brand.
Not really. The Southwest is 30% Latin. If they ever start voting, the Trumps of the world will be barbecued on a spit
Se habla Espanol, ya'll.
|Probably not, and if it can, it's unethical and barbaric.|
|Sure. Those who survive will try again, but it can be done.|
|Trump's talking out his arse.|
|We are already deporting more under Obama than any past president. Can we realistically do more than that.|
|What's the platform.|
|With 11 million "illegal" imigrants, the horse is out of the barn|
|Yes, if they crossed the US, Mexico border, send them back.|
|Yes, secret police.|
|Yes, use of military to enforce border protection|
|How will Donald Trump handle internal migration problems from drought ravaged regions in the FSoA? (text response)|
|Again as an outsider, I cannot see it ending peacefully. My guess would be that it would be "managed' by some sort of terrible 'disaster' where the administration could the provide assistance to the 'survivors'|
All he can do is give service. The cost of this is going to overwhelm the system.
Their is no solution to this except a large population reduction.
|Blame somebody else|
|Deport people back to the states they came from.|
|Ditto question 5|
|Donald Trump AGAIN.!! FSoA pop will hold off migrating till they can get a good deal on the sale of their house; then it'll be too late cuz no one will be buying… That's when the hoards will finally migrate; with nothing. Then they'll be "the homeless" and we all know how we've come to treat "the homeless".|
|Give them a straw AND free transport to the Great Lakes|
Going on Fox News and Blaming the victims.
and building a gold plated tower…
|He can't, It's too much for him to figure out.|
|He might conquer Canada and open up homesteading there.|
|He will give speeches and after expressing two cents worth of sympathy he will tell them to get jobs.|
|He will invariably do something profoundly stupid that makes the problem vastly worse.|
|He will not address it|
|He will threaten then with his hair monster.|
|He won't need to|
|He won't, because he won't be elected. Even Americans aren't that heartless and stupid as to let him take office.|
|He'll run a solutions competition, and the winner will be a for-profit plan that will relocate millions of poor people into giant new suburb slums outside of exiting urban areas with more water resources. The slums will be built out of recycled steel shipping containers nicknamed Trumpholes.|
|His people will think of something.|
|I already mentioned that he is a twat|
|I don't believe he will be elected. Assuming he is elected, I do not know enough of his platform to give a worthwhile response.|
|I don't know|
|I have no knowledge on the subject|
|I think he will blame immigrants for taking the water and force them out.|
|just like everything else he does, by saving the rich at the expense of the poor, through violence if needed|
|lost in space|
|Not a clue. Just following the 1986 regulations would help. California is destined to be a third world state in my opinion.|
|Not at all|
|Put them in camps.|
|Renounce the citizenship of all Hispanics and Blacks. Then implement 5.|
|Sell the sw refugees condos in trump towers|
|The same way the FSoA handles 92 million unemployed. Trailer parks hunger and rotten teeth.|
|Whatever it is, it will be H-U-U-U-U-GE!|
|Why don't you ask Donald.|
|You know, I'm starting to think this poll isn't completely neutral.|
|If you were in charge, what policies would you put in place now to try and stem the tide of refugees all over the world? (text response)|
|Actively try to prevent war in their countries in the first place, instead of encouraging it to profit from arms sales. And actual regulation of multinationals that operate from my home country instead of pretending they do not exploit workers and people abroad (and at home).|
|As King of the World. Migration is a fact. It will happen as climate change begins to bite. Develop soft population growth controls and alter national boundaries/resource consumption to accomodate as many people as possible while working to decreace total population to a sustainable number through natural reductions. (Like this ever has a chance in hell of happening).|
|Best to provide aid to their homelands and keep people home and with their own cultures. This will become increasing difficult though since the financial system is running on fumes and is really broke.|
|Birth control for.the population forced sterilization of all elite and their families.|
No new babies!!!
|Call an emergency meeting of the UN, find a way in which the whole world pitches in.|
|Can't be done|
|Development of autonomous drones. Scrap traditional warfare conventions. There will be no way for humans to stop what's coming. It's time to call in the heartless machines.|
|Don't stem it. People are getting killed and tortured. Build cheap housing for them, give them a tiny income, hire more police and schoolteachers to reduce the trouble they'll cause. Raise taxes to do all this. When natives complain that the refugees make life slightly harder for them, point out that asylum is a human right.|
|Drop money instead of bombs.|
Educating women seems to be the best way to lower the birth rate. I'd try to educate and empower women in 3rd world countries.
Too little too late, though.
|erect electric fences|
|Get all NATO nations together, invade the MIddle East, gain full control of the region and develop it.|
|I doubt it would take more than a few shots fired and people would be too afraid to try again.|
I think the only way we can really stop the migration refugees is to go to the route of the problem. We know why refugees are fleeing their birthplace. Why don't we do anything. They should feel safe. We should end these wars rather than capitalize on them and start them. Ending the source of the conflict would be the only measure I feel would significantly make refugees want to stay in their country.
Another, harsher option would be to reduce the amount of pull factors that entice migrants and refugees. If we limited the amount of perks then surely less refugees would want to arrive in a country e.g. make them unable to have NHS covered healthcare until after a certain amount of time, make them unable to claim benefits until they have evidence that they have searched for a certain number of jobs in a certain period of time.
|I would give every person a basic income, instead of other benefits and government programs, which would be enough for survival (adapted to each country's standard of living) and simple living|
|I wouldn't do this because refugees are human too and deserve to be somewhere safe. Just because they're not rich and powerful doesn't mean they don't deserve safety.|
|I'm so tempted to say "wholesale takeover of one part of Middle East so that we could set up a working country there, for refugees and aid them to create a better country" but that's pipe dreams. As long as ISIS and Boko Haram etc are operating, there will be refugees and crisis. The only solution is to end the vast imbalance of rich vs. poor – worldwide implementation of high taxation of the top 10%; no country providing "havens" – then we'd have the money to help those who need assistance setting up their lives in a peaceful place. The crisis is due to rich and powerful sucking up the funds to pay for their fun.|
|If I were "in charge" I would RESIGN IMMEDIATELY, and go spend the rest of the collapse in a suite in Las Vegas,play a fiddle for irony…and Bill the Koch Brothers for services rendered to pay for it all!|
|Immediately dismiss the neocon cabal orchestrating US foreign policy and bring charges for war crimes against the lot. If the Empire of Chaos would stop its continuous policy of divide-and-rule, the political dimension of the refugee crisis would be mitigated. The coming climate change aspects would, of course, not be.|
|IMPOSE strict food rationing on indigenous population. for travelers ,bring or grow your own or starve.Its going to happen anyway|
|International military action to make their homelands safe and foreign aid to keep them from starving. I would form a team of experts to figure out where refugees can go that would cause the least amount of disruption in host countries and which would piss off the smallest number of people.|
It is too late.
World population needs to be reduced uniformly and by a large amount.
These issues are an obvious consequence of larger, overarching problems which have been known about for a long time.
We are unfortunate to live in these times.
|My brain hurts when I think about it. Being a mother I am torn between wanting to nurture and save(if the numbers are not overwhelming, big if I know) versus getting the claws out to protect valuable resources for my kin. The level of pragmatic coolness with which I can speculate on 'solutions' is disquieting in a way.|
|No policies will help, too late.|
|no solution really, we are in overshoot phase|
|Politics is about interest, but we could all be fairer and make sure that those don't play fair suffer because of it.|
|Put them in camps that provide 3 pots and a cot and nothing more.|
|Rapid culling of the human herd to <1B may provide a viable path for the remainder. Otherwise, economic and environmental conditions continue to deteriorate to the point of no return for all. So let's just cut to the chase and whack the vast majority of the proles. It's gonna happen anyway.|
Renounce the UN Charter on Refugees.
Pass a law making it a death penalty offense to be an illegal immigrant – regardless of age or gender.
Rescind citizenship of ALL non Whites and Jews.
Declare ALL non Whites and Jews without citizenship to be illegal immigrants.
Implement the law without mercy, pity or compassion.
|Self solving problem we are in massive population overshoot, ecological collapse, a warming planet.|
|Sink the boats|
|Sink the boats!|
Stop bombing them and raping their natural resources.
Arrest the bankers and captains of the Military Industrial Complex.
|stop Donald trump and idiocravy|
|Stop fucking coming over or you will be shot.|
|Stop imperialistic wars and the consumption of fossil fuels.|
Stop the deliberate creation of failed states such as Iraq, Syria,Ukraine.
Who am I kidding. There is no steming this, we are all out of stems, no stems to be had, stemless.
|Stop the MIC from ceeating refugees. Mandatory sterilization all women after 1 child. Restoration agriculture.|
|Stop the wars that's producing refugees in the first place. Someone smarter than me should be able to figure out how.|
|Stop US military everywhere and stop pressuring Russia.|
There effectively is no way to stop people from trying to get to places that seem better than where they come from.
The only thing that can be done is resolve some of the military conflicts; its the only thing about which we have any control (climate change is probably no longer in out control for the short term, anyway).
Unfortunately, the conflicts continue tomultiply without any end in sight. The last round of interventionist policies of the early 2000s caused even more instability than the previous round of interventions in the mid 1990s.
Is there anyone that seriously thinks more intervention is going to solve the conflicts.
|There is NO policy that can work now; world pops are too far into the destruction of what was. I certainly couldn't stop the current ripping apart of established, uniquely defined cultures and institutions, thereby forcing people to migrate. Nor could I force other uniquely defined functioning societies to accept overwhelming numbers of uniquely defined and foreign populations. Disrupting civilization ie social systems without rules except as defined by force of the now migrating hoards will always result in disorienting chaos and hostilities. Humans simply can't process, least of all assimilate drastic and dramatic demographic changes into everyday living. This is more of the typical shit started at "The Decider top" for private gains and paid for by the masses at "the bottom" by socializing the costs. Insulting thinking people who want some kind of orderly and comprehensive policies, by labeling them racists and xeno-phobes is only inciting anger. The human condition naturally resists chaos and fear of losing what's familiar. Inclusive empathy only stretches so far before people and systems break down. Another factor of decline and doom.|
|There is no solution.|
|Theres nothing that can be done.|
|Try to find a solution to the problems in their original homes so that there is no need for migration.|
|Walls. Military. Boarder Guards|
OK, that is what the sample of Kollapsniks TM thinks about this problem.
What do I think about it? Joe D asked this question when I dropped on the Survey:
I made the following point in a text box in the survey and would love to hear more from you directly…that being to get from 8B to 4B to 1B people on the planet in less than two generations means lots of people will die unnaturally. And if this is not only probable but also potentially beneficial to the remainder, why do all of our conversations revolve around minimizing death rather than accepting its long term benefit to the survival of our species and planet? I know it feels a little immoral, or at least a little amoral, but isnt it the right thing? Isnt more death helpful to our long term survival?
Unfortunately, unnatural death is often ugly and sorted so it's easy to throw ideas which support it under the bus as disgusting barbarism. But maybe they are neither disgusting nor barbaric. Rather they are necessary, practical, and inevitable.
The fact of the matter is this is a Wicked Problem. It doesn't have a solution which is palatable to everyone, and the solutions that will be undertaken are all inherently unfair, chaotic etc. The text answers given above are for the most part incredibly STUPID. I do these things to try to get a feel for the pulse of J6P, but it is incredibly dissapointing when you actually take this pulse.
There is no way to equitably reduce a population of Homo Sap. It's always a chaotic adventure. The fact we are in such a massive overshoot situation now means the dowspin is going to be orders of magnitude greater in chaos than has ever come before. the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are coming, and staying out of their path will take a lot of luck and planning. Now would be a good time to get started if you have not already.