Doomstead or Bugout?

Off the Diner Keyboards

Recently the Diner welcomed Old Horseman, a veteran of the Peak Period of Peak Oil chatter on the Net as a Moderator on Matt Savinar’s Life After the Oil Crash, better known to Peak Oilers and Doomers as LATOC.

Prior to meeting here, Old Horseman and I never encountered each other before on the Net in the Disucssions of Doom and the Prepping Paradigms, but of course its not a real big community overall and if you hang with it long enough, eventually you run into everybody. So we did on the pages of The Oil Age, a Spin Off Forum which arose after Matt took LATOC Offline.

Old Horseman has been pursuing the Doomstead paradigm for a long time, as I gather more or less on the Amish Model utilizing Horses and 18th-19th century technology to build his Doomstead. Inside the Diner since he arrived, we have begun a Comparative Methods discussion of how the Doomers can best Prep themselves for the dislocations which we are facing down as the Age of Oil comes to a close.

Below here you will find some of the discussion of our differing methodologies for Prepping for the Collapse, which I generally put under the Titles of “Doomsteading” or “Bugging Out“. Others including the Sail Paradigm of Dmitri Orlow are also discussed here in this thread.

You can read much more inside the Diner on these ideas, but here below is a beginning for the Newby to Collapse to consider as you prep yourself for the End of the Age of Oil.

RE

Discuss this article in the Epicurean Delights Smorgasboard Inside the Diner

OnlineRE

« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2012, 11:25:25 PM »

We don’t have anything quite that awesome here… But we do have the means to make it pretty difficult for your common band of thugs to take us. And there’s nothing here worth bothering-with to anyone more formidable than that.

Just Needling you OH.
Smokey Mountains in TN and WV and the Ozarks made my Top 10 Bugout Locations in North America. So if you are in those neighborhoods, :emthup: :emthup:
In terms of not having anything of value, you got the HORSES! Good Eating for a roving band of ex-National Guard when the MREs run out. Of course, Dogs make good eating also, just ask any Chef in a Chinese Restaurant. :icon_mrgreen:
Anyhow, this is why I favor the Bugout Plans over the Doomsteading ones overall and Prepping to go the Full Primitive as far out as you can possibly go in a complete Shitstorm. Sadly for me of course I came down with PAD a couple of years ago and my legs are no longer very good, so I won’t last much longer than my Preps unless the kids I have taught to use Sling and Atlatl value me enough to keep me around a while, just have to see how it goes if it comes down to that in what is left of my lifetime.
What I really expect up here is Alaska will become a Military State for a while, since the Military dominates up here and is very well equipped. Better to be Inside the Fortress than outside it. I expect the Military to commandeer the Oil Fields on the Slope and ANWR along with the Commercial Fishing Fleet as well and the Refinery in Faribanks. I hope to be Useful and keep teaching Military Brats for a while longer before I make my final trip to the Great Beyond.
Just gotta see how it goes. Worse come to worse, I’ll hole up in the Mountains with my preps and my Barrett .50 cal and shoot anything that moves inside 1000 yards. Legs no good anymore, but I still have good eyes and a steady hand.
Will NOT get on the train for Resettlement in a FEMA Camp. I’ll give myself up to the Bear before I do that. I owe the Bears, took enough of them down, payback time for me there.
Basically I am just greatful I got to see as uch of this as I already have. The rest is all Bonus now.
RE

Offlinebuzzard

  • Chatty
  • **
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 10:01:14 AM »
RE- Some of us made our decision on ‘bugging in’ based on our physical condition. We represent a small group of misfits and handicapped who can not reasonably consider being mobile. And anyway, I’ll be damned if I’m going to be chased any where. I make my stand here. Also, know this, Old Horseman is the real deal. When you know him better you will grow to respect his knowledge and stance. Of course I don’t need to defend him. He is quite capable of that himself. You have been through the aether wars for some years. So has he. OH is not a light weight.
[Having said that I think it is a hoot that you two have begun a dialogue which should have begun years ago. What a shake-out in third generation blogs.]
In the end, of course, our decisions must be based on our individual circumstances and means. I have been fortunate in that I have been given the means to at least partially realize my goals. As we all know or will soon find out pragmatism wins out over idealism every time. Rubber, may I introduce you to Road?//

OnlineRE

  • Administrator
  • Gunslinger
  • *****
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 05:41:41 PM »

RE- Some of us made our decision on ‘bugging in’ based on our physical condition. We represent a small group of misfits and handicapped who can not reasonably consider being mobile. And anyway, I’ll be damned if I’m going to be chased any where. I make my stand here. Also, know this, Old Horseman is the real deal. When you know him better you will grow to respect his knowledge and stance. Of course I don’t need to defend him. He is quite capable of that himself. You have been through the aether wars for some years. So has he. OH is not a light weight.
[Having said that I think it is a hoot that you two have begun a dialogue which should have begun years ago. What a shake-out in third generation blogs.]
In the end, of course, our decisions must be based on our individual circumstances and means. I have been fortunate in that I have been given the means to at least partially realize my goals. As we all know or will soon find out pragmatism wins out over idealism every time. Rubber, may I introduce you to Road?

Make no mistake BZ, OH gets my complete respect. He’s a long time Doomer, long predating my wake up call. He also picked his paradigm and has been following through with it for years.
That we never crossed paths before is IMHO fortuitous, it means we don’t have a History with each other and can talk like the grizzled old veterans of Doom on the Net that we are. :icon_mrgreen:
Far as not getting pushed anywhere and drawing your Line in the Sand, reasonable enough if the location is somewhat defensible. Go for the High Ground.
RE//

 


OfflineWHD

  • Administrator
  • Thinker
  • *****
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2012, 08:08:33 PM »
Quote

Just gotta see how it goes. Worse come to worse, I’ll hole up in the Mountains with my preps and my Barrett .50 cal and shoot anything that moves inside 1000 yards. Legs no good anymore, but I still have good eyes and a steady hand.
Will NOT get on the train for Resettlement in a FEMA Camp. I’ll give myself up to the Bear before I do that. I owe the Bears, took enough of them down, payback time for me there.
Basically I am just greatful I got to see as uch of this as I already have. The rest is all Bonus now.

Will RE go out, to the other side, in BLAZING GLORY, or in quiet contemplation?
I myself would be happy someday to feed myself to the wolves. And I am well aware, and relish the idea actually, that I should be alive when I meet them. Real wolves, not men.
Ultimatly, I would prefer to move on in quiet contemplation. In the wild, or among people that I love. :laugh: //

 


OfflineWHD

  • Administrator
  • Thinker
  • *****
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2012, 08:12:52 PM »
Old Horseman,
May we meet on the trail one day.

OfflineOldHorseman

« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2012, 09:20:35 PM »
I should point-out that I do not think doomsteading is the only way… In fact, for most people, it’s not even a remotely viable way to go.
The Grizzly Adams option has its merits. Growing up in the rural South (before video-games and cable TV couch-potatoized everyone), knowing how to hunt, fish, forage, and generally survive in the wilderness was the norm. (Of course, this is probably easier to accomplish here in climes more temperate than Seward’s Folly.)
Becoming a post-collapse townie may well work for a lot of people. Imagine a small town adapting to function without modern infrastructure support, and what kind of skills and know-how one would need to be valuable to such a community. Might start with any occupation that was important enough, long enough, to become a surname. (Smith, Tanner, Miller, Shoemaker, etc.)
Most people really should just get ahead of the game and go get established in the Fedghettos now though… That way they’ll have a head-start on things compared to the suburbanites who’ll be arriving in droves before long.
A well-outfitted, ocean-going house-boat might be a great way to go. You can just keep sailing away to the places with the least oppression, radiation, or oil sheen. A bug-out RV may be a somewhat lesser approach to the same idea. Might at least get you way off the beaten path before you go on foot to do the Grizzly Adams thing.
It’s the half-ass doomsteaders that kinda’ make me ::) … A suburban home with a little garden and a composting toilet isn’t a viable doomstead. Having some land out in the sticks won’t do you much good if you find yourself standing in the middle of it after TEOTWAWKI without anything done or any experience at doing it…
For myself, I figured while Cornucopian resources were available, I’d use them to build a decent doomstead. Already had a bunch of archaic skills going-in, and the 19th Century kinda’ suits me anyway. Can always revert to feral if I have to, but thought I’d try and hang-on to the best lifestyle feasibly possible in the mean-time.
//

Getting older… Means I’ve been fightin’ dirtier, longer.


OnlineRE

« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2012, 11:11:56 PM »

I should point-out that I do not think doomsteading is the only way… In fact, for most people, it’s not even a remotely viable way to go.
The Grizzly Adams option has its merits. Growing up in the rural South (before video-games and cable TV couch-potatoized everyone), knowing how to hunt, fish, forage, and generally survive in the wilderness was the norm. (Of course, this is probably easier to accomplish here in climes more temperate than Seward’s Folly.)

I like to think of it as the “Jeremiah Johnson” paradigm rather than Grizzly Adams. :icon_mrgreen: I’m not young enough anymore to play the Robert Redford part, but I do OK with the Will Geer part. LOL.
“Seward’s Folly”, or as I prefer to refer to it “The Last Great Frontier” has numerous advantages over the South on the Hunting/Fishing paradigm. First off the population density of Homo Sapiens here is the lowest of anywhere in the world with good resources besides some locations in Siberia. The Matanuska Susitna River Valley where I live by itself is about the size of TX, and has only around 60,000 people living here, less than your typical Dallas Subdivision.
The Cold Climate also has advantages on the Food Storage end. It’s quite easy to build an Icehouse here that will last all Summer for Food Refrigeration. This saves a lot on having to acquire enough Salt and using a lot of wood for drying and smoking your meat. The climate also means you have fewer problems with Insects and other pests which bother the Sod Busters down in the South, and yes we do have very productive Farms in Palmer.
Once you get snow cover also, it makes pulling your Kills back to your cabin much easier, since you can quarter them in the field, feed the less appetizing parts to your Dogs and sled back the rest.
Anyhow, I’ve written about all this stuff in other threads on the Doomsteading Board.
The primary issues I have with Doomsteading for most people I write for is that it is Outta Budget. They can’t afford 20 Acres and getting it all set up with Horses and essential Off the Grid stuff. I try to create paradigms that are under $50K in cost and mainly take Know-How and some practice to pull off, at least for the hopefully fairly short time necessary until most of the population goes the way of the Reindeer on St. Matthews Island . Actually, I have a Bugout Bag paradigm for the Final Bugout which just is what you carry on your back, and hopefully makes your Wilderness Survival a bit easier than having to Knap your own Stone Tools from scratch. Said Bugout Bag can be put together for under $1000, assuming you can pick up a Compound Bow used on Craig’s list for under $200 or so.

Quote

Becoming a post-collapse townie may well work for a lot of people. Imagine a small town adapting to function without modern infrastructure support, and what kind of skills and know-how one would need to be valuable to such a community. Might start with any occupation that was important enough, long enough, to become a surname. (Smith, Tanner, Miller, Shoemaker, etc.)

I like the Small Community paradigm better than going it alone, but you do have to be in a community which may be able to so adjust. Said communities are few and far between these days of course. Again though, our small towns up here in the Mat Valley generally fit this bill pretty well.

Quote

Most people really should just get ahead of the game and go get established in the Fedghettos now though… That way they’ll have a head-start on things compared to the suburbanites who’ll be arriving in droves before long.

The problem for most people in tryin to move out to such a community now is the Work problem. In said communities there really isn’t much employment to be found. In fact small towns in places like Vermont are depopulating. If they are currently actually still EMPLOYED out there in the Industrial Economy, giving up your Paycheck to try the Full primitive NOW is a pretty risky choice on its own. Even if you have enough Money to set up a Subsistence Farm AND enough knowledge to at least get started on this, that too is risky.
Then you got issues if you are Married and have children as well. Your Significant Other has to be on board already with the idea, and your kids may react negatively to the idea of giving up their IPhones. So moving out RIGHT NOW isn’t quite so easy for many if not most people.

Quote

A well-outfitted, ocean-going house-boat might be a great way to go. You can just keep sailing away to the places with the least oppression, radiation, or oil sheen. A bug-out RV may be a somewhat lesser approach to the same idea. Might at least get you way off the beaten path before you go on foot to do the Grizzly Adams thing.

The Sail Paradigm is the Dmitri Orlov thing. Again its one of the better ones, and cheaper than a Doomstead if you pick up your Boat on the Used market. Good ones in the 35-45′ range can be found for $30-40K these days as many seek to unload them to keep paying the Mortgage on their McMansions. Dopes.
The paradigm has disadvantages also which I have periodically detailed. Security is the main problem, said boats are very vulnerable to Theft when moored in Marinas. Theft of what you have on board anytime you leave the boat, and theft of the whole boat kit and kaboodle. They don’t have huge storage room for a lot of Food Preps, maybe 6 months worth depending how you crowd up the Cabin space. You will also run into problems as time goes by finding anywhere to actually GO where the locals won’t hit you up for whatever you got on board. If you wanna try the Fletcher Christian thing, finding a Pitcairn Island to settle with a bunch of Native Girls isn’t so easy anymore.
I personally mainly follow the Bugout Machine paradigm, I have an RV I picked up for $5000 Used in absolutely fabulous condition with just 45K miles on it. I keep it topped off with Gas all the time, packed and ready to go a good 500 miles further out than I already am and hopefully again last long enough for most of the rest of the population to make the trip to the Great Beyond. The main issue screwing with this paradigm for me now are my fucked up legs. However, I don’t intend to go out there alone, I have friends and students I’ll go with. The kids and the dogs can run the game toward my blind, and I can hit anything that moves inside of 1000 yards no problemo at least with the Barrett. Gotta be a good deal closer to knock it down with the Crossbow or Compound Bow.

Quote

It’s the half-ass doomsteaders that kinda’ make me ::) … A suburban home with a little garden and a composting toilet isn’t a viable doomstead. Having some land out in the sticks won’t do you much good if you find yourself standing in the middle of it after TEOTWAWKI without anything done or any experience at doing it…

Agreed, suburban Doomsteads aren’t a whole lot better than being inside a Big Shity, so I recommend Suburbanites have a Bugout Machine ready all the time, and locations picked out in advance to head for. You should have Alternate Routes picked out off the Interstate in case Military Roadblocks are set up quickly, which is likely in the event of something like a False Flag Nuclear attack somewhere inside the FSofA. You have to be ready to react INSTANTANEOUSLY if Newz like that comes across the MSM. You likely only have minutes to hours before many Roadblocks and Checkpoints are set up.

Quote

For myself, I figured while Cornucopian resources were available, I’d use them to build a decent doomstead. Already had a bunch of archaic skills going-in, and the 19th Century kinda’ suits me anyway. Can always revert to feral if I have to, but thought I’d try and hang-on to the best lifestyle feasibly possible in the mean-time.

Reasonable choice, and you made it early enough and had enough means to be able to get it set up. I am curious how you afforded it over the years, horses and such aren’t cheap and generally small farms don’t meet the bills too well. Did you maintain conventional employment of some type?
RE//

Advertisements

Leave a Reply

Please log in using one of these methods to post your comment:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s