You CANNOT Make Something from Nothing

Repost from a debate underway between Steve of Virginia of the Economic Undertow and RE of the Doomstead Diner on the question of whether a 3rd Party presents a Political Solution to our current spin down. The original thread on EU is Topic for Discussion.

RE

Discuss this further inside the Diner at the Frosbite Falls Daily Rant

Reverse Engineer says:

We do of course have many “3rd Parties”, just none with a snowball’s chance in hell of getting Elected on any kind of scale. Occassionally they do, Bernie Sanders is a Socialist, right?

Creating some kind of monolithic 3rd Party to represent the 99% is pretty tough, because of all those nasty subsidiary issues people get bogged down in, like Gay Marriage, Stem Cell Research, School Prayer yadda yadda.

Then you have your Eurotrash example to deal with, where new Parties pop up like Buboes all the time, the new Syriza party in Greece beign a classic example of this. So you get your Parliamentary structure with 10 different parties seated and brokering to make “coalitions” to form Goobermints and the Lock Up is just about as bad as the Two Party Farce we have.

So, while a 3rd Party is a nice idealized concept, in practicality it would do little to change the general state of Political Seizure we have going all over the world these days. There really is not a good Political Solution to the problems we are confronted with, and no I do not think simply eliminating the Carz would help the situation all that much even if you could pull this off Politically.

In all likelihood, the structure we have in place here cannot be salvaged at all, including the “democratic” institutions of Goobermint which basically just serve as Window Dressing anyhow for very powerful people who work behind the Curtain. the system will have to collapse before anything new can be rebuilt, if there is anything left to rebuild with anyhow.

A 3rd Party here in the FSofA, even if a viable one is formed will not make a difference in the way Da Goobermint is operating. The 3rd Party POTUS if elected would still face gridlock in CONgress, and eliminating all the corruption and lobbyists and Golden Parachute jobs in Banking or Industry for revolving door Congressmen is about impossible. NO financing rules will stop this action from taking place, they’ll just find back doors around it all.

The only solution is a DISSOLUTION of the FSofA Nation State Entity into many Baby Bells, an anti-trust type action. then individual regions will be more free to develop their own local solutions and own local Political Parties.

The FSofA is Too Big to Save.

RE

 

Reverse Engineer says:

 

 

“RE, you are giving the establishment too much credit.”-Steve

I don’t think so. These are the same folks who wrote into existence the credit necessary to build and subsidize the Railroads, the Electrical Grid, the Interstate Highways, Goobermint Motors and of course the Internet. That is a LOL of Credit Steve, by any measure.

Who EVER really had a “choice” here about whether the Railroad would get Right of Way through their Farmhouse? Who ever really had a choice whether a Macondo Well was drilled or not? Sure, we got the EPA and other Window Dressing, but man, if the Money Masters want to Drill ANWR, bet your bottom Dollar (or really theirs) they’ll go right ahead and do that.

Describing the Tea Party as a raging success here is IMHO nonsense, that “Party” is just another piece of Window Dressing, taking money from the Koch Brothers and other monied interests. They aren’t independent in any sense of the word. Besides that, like Syriza in Greece, they buy the same idea that “Growth” can be achieved, when it cannot.

How does anyone form a 3rd party around the idea that Contraction and Shrinkage is what is necessary, when that means in practicality that the Lights will Go Out or at least regular brownouts for a while, everybody has to give up their Carz and all the mobility that allows them and everybody has to give up their Iphones and 24/7 connection to the Internet?

Any 3rd Party which does form is going to make the same tired promises every other party does, then once in office will be subjected to the same pressures resutant from a contracting economy. So then they get dumped out of office or eventually strung up by their Gonads, and the next somewhat more extreme group plops into the power vacuum.

This is the nature of the collapse as it plays out with the Political systems of control. It will of course become exacerbated when the logistical systems also begin to fail, the power grid, the JIT delivery system etc. You cannot fix that by any means, because the thermodynamic energy is not there to do it with. The whole system is built on that, you know that as well as I do.

Trying to fix the problems we have here at the Political level is like trying to fix a Car that is misfiring by replacing the Spark Plugs when the REAL problem is the Gas Tank is about EMPTY. You can drop Shiny New Plugs into the Engine, but its STILL not going anywhere.

Outta Gas.

RE

 

  • steve from virginia says:

     

     

    Unmanaged breakdown has unforeseeable consequences. Selling restraint is easy when the only reasonable alternatives are unpleasant, such as what you describe.

    By the time people realize the current suite of canned ‘solutions’ is defective it will be too late to organize better strategies. It is best to start now. Everyone over @ this blog understands what is behind ‘Door Number 1′. If you’ve come this far in the ‘game’ you know there isn’t a whole lot left to lose.

    Meanwhile, your grandparents dealt with hard times without complaint as did mine … although I have to admit that doing so made them kinda crazy. The Depression made ‘prosperity in a can’ an entitlement rather than good luck. That is an attitude rather than a condition. :)

     

     

  •  

     

    “Meanwhile, your grandparents dealt with hard times without complaint as did mine … although I have to admit that doing so made them kinda crazy. The Depression made ‘prosperity in a can’ an entitlement rather than good luck. That is an attitude rather than a condition.”-Steve

    Our GPs dealt with hard times when probably 90% of the population was still agrarian and when there really still was plenty-o-oil left to be extracted into the economy, thence and thereafter to be burned up to run the big engine of Industrialization. Besides that, there were not near so many of them running willy nilly around the planet as there are now.

    The “hard times” our GPs faced would come to an end with an explosion of credit first to finance WWII, ours will not. It’s not even clear WWIII can be financed on credit this time before the system implodes. Even if it can be though, the aftermath won’t see a Marshall Plan rebuild of the Eurotrash OR a news Interstate Highways system built here in the FSofA.

    Selling on the Political Level that our future is one of an ever increasingly austere lifestyle is not a message most people want to hear, EVER. Even if you predate Fossil Fuels, nobody would have been very popular saying “your kids are going to live an even WORSE life than you do”.

    Now, you can make the case that the End Life here is better in the Spiritual Sense, you can hold dear the life of Monet and his paintings or the world the Founding Fathers lived in as an idealized version of reality, but fact is none of that was very sustainable EITHER. For the average J6P of those years, they had at least as many problems as we have with the current paradigm, at least personally. What they did not have was quite the level of ecological damage this paradigm does of course.

    Is there a POLITICAL solution to this problem, 3rd Party or otherwise? I put it to you that there is not. It’s a catabolic collapse Steve, and ain’t NUTHIN gonna stop it now. We WILL get 3rd parties, and 4th and 5th ones also as the first 2 parties fail in providing even the most basic of services and Goobermint to the community.

    This system cannot be repaired within the confines of it’s current structure, and it will, it MUST collapse before any other system can be dropped in as replacement. 3rd Parties are not the Solution. The Final Solution is the complete destruction of this paradigm and it won’t take revolt for that to occur, though this most certainly will be part of the outcome. The destruction will come organically from internal rot and the necessary obediance to the most fundamental of Natural Laws.

    You CANNOT make Something from Nothing.

    RE

  • Update 9:30PM 5/29/2012

Reverse Engineer says:

“Meanwhile, your grandparents dealt with hard times without complaint as did mine … although I have to admit that doing so made them kinda crazy. The Depression made ‘prosperity in a can’ an entitlement rather than good luck. That is an attitude rather than a condition.”-Steve

Our GPs dealt with hard times when probably 90% of the population was still agrarian and when there really still was plenty-o-oil left to be extracted into the economy, thence and thereafter to be burned up to run the big engine of Industrialization. Besides that, there were not near so many of them running willy nilly around the planet as there are now.

The “hard times” our GPs faced would come to an end with an explosion of credit first to finance WWII, ours will not. It’s not even clear WWIII can be financed on credit this time before the system implodes. Even if it can be though, the aftermath won’t see a Marshall Plan rebuild of the Eurotrash OR a news Interstate Highways system built here in the FSofA.

Selling on the Political Level that our future is one of an ever increasingly austere lifestyle is not a message most people want to hear, EVER. Even if you predate Fossil Fuels, nobody would have been very popular saying “your kids are going to live an even WORSE life than you do”.

Now, you can make the case that the End Life here is better in the Spiritual Sense, you can hold dear the life of Monet and his paintings or the world the Founding Fathers lived in as an idealized version of reality, but fact is none of that was very sustainable EITHER. For the average J6P of those years, they had at least as many problems as we have with the current paradigm, at least personally. What they did not have was quite the level of ecological damage this paradigm does of course.

Is there a POLITICAL solution to this problem, 3rd Party or otherwise? I put it to you that there is not. It’s a catabolic collapse Steve, and ain’t NUTHIN gonna stop it now. We WILL get 3rd parties, and 4th and 5th ones also as the first 2 parties fail in providing even the most basic of services and Goobermint to the community.

This system cannot be repaired within the confines of it’s current structure, and it will, it MUST collapse before any other system can be dropped in as replacement. 3rd Parties are not the Solution. The Final Solution is the complete destruction of this paradigm and it won’t take revolt for that to occur, though this most certainly will be part of the outcome. The destruction will come organically from internal rot and the necessary obediance to the most fundamental of Natural Laws.

You CANNOT make Something from Nothing.

RE

Update 9:30PM 5/29./2012

  • steve from virginia says:

     

     

    RE you are conflicting yourself. On one hand you insist that _______________-driven unraveling is underway (true) then you insist that nobody will accept it. At the same time the basis of public unhappiness is acceptance of the FACT of the _______________-driven unraveling.

    Collapse is a really, really big idea, but it’s already embedded in pop culture … Hollywood has made a bunch of movies and TV shows about it. What this means is that as big as it is it has already been framed. Everything is in play within pop culture, even doom.

    Unhappy folks want something. A return of Santa Claus is high on the wish list but cutting off the bailouts is a good second choice … that is also within reach.

    Nobody promises outcomes, certainly not politicians, not even the shills on late-night television.

    I’m certainly not doing a good job of explaining my economics (‘Economic’ undertow rather than just plain ol’ undertow). Restraint in the present means resources in the future, that is reasonable (and also a fact). The public discussion including ‘sustainability’ genuflects in this direction,

    Business as usual means competitive resource stripping and bankruptcy. This is failure … because business as usual is not working.

    I don’t agree that the press to consume comes from the bottom up. We are bombarded with manipulative advertising, our corporate culture insists on a place within every human activity. Business interests carry enormous weight: the customer is always wrong … or a victim … or some kind of chum. Business undermines its own interests even as it demands constant debt subsidy.

     

     

  •  

     

    “I don’t agree that the press to consume comes from the bottom up. We are bombarded with manipulative advertising, our corporate culture insists on a place within every human activity. Business interests carry enormous weight: the customer is always wrong … or a victim … or some kind of chum. Business undermines its own interests even as it demands constant debt subsidy. “-Steve

    I never said the press to consume comes from the bottom up, Steve. In fact I said precisely the opposite, which is that those at the top chose to issue the credit to build the railroads and the interstate to create the culture we have before us.

    “We the People” can’t stop what is occurring short of a Global Revoltion because “We the People” are not in control of this and never have been. Electing 3rd Party Puppets won’t do a damn thing to change anything, and if a truly charismatic “Leader” with a great vision stepped in to try to stop the Bailouts he would end up with Bullet meets Brain disease.

    Finally, I don’t see any conflict with the observation that although people are not happy with the status quo, the “solution” to their woes isn’t a life they either want or are prepared at the moment to live. Nor in fact is it even clear that “conservation” will work or is possible to work given the dependence established on Oil. Its not going to be possible to run Big Shities with all their electric lights and water sewage and pumping stations once “conservation” is fully implemented, either by choice or by economics.

    How do you move all those people out of those places and back to the land? You can’t do it. How do you deconstruct 100 years worth of ring roads and McMansions that are completely non-functional without the automobile? You can’t do it. At least not in a manner that itself is going to have vicious blowback.

    Perhaps “Collapse” has already been absorbed into the zeitgeist through pop culture, from Mad Max to Children of Men to Hunger Games. It doesn’t make it wrong just because its been glommed by Hollywood. Whether those apocalyptic depictions are precisely correct or not doesn’t matter. The reality is we have an unsustainable paradigm which is collapsing on itself and we are long since past the point of being able to manage that collapse, if we ever were. The relentless expansion of population and stripping of earth resources began long before the Age of Oil, it began with Agriculture and possibly even before that with the acquisition and control of Fire. As top of the food chain predators, we simply were way too successful. Now we live on a beaten up planet housing far too many locusts in this plague. If there is a solution, it comes in the form of a massive population reduction, and that is not going to happen fast enough with even forced sterilization. Even if you did THAT, you end up with a demographic nightmare of aging people.

    The solution will be imposed as it always has been, by Famine, Pestilence, War and Death. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

    RE

     

     

    • steve from virginia says:

       

       

      Keynes said it best: “in the long run we’re all dead”. What happens between now and then?

      First of all, you have no obligations to do anything, I won’t ask you to do anything (other than not beat up my other visitors). This is a discussion not the Wehrmacht. Part of the point is to see how folks feel about the future … from a more activist angle.

      You aren’t afraid of the activist angle are you?

      None of us has ever experienced a post-industrial society, we can’t imagine what it might be like. How to cope? I don’t know any more than anyone else, but the problems we face are human problems, not an invasion from Outer Space. The only reason we don’t solve these human problems is because we don’t want to. It’s that simple: ‘Now People’ (particularly Americans) are like little children. Nobody has ever said ‘no’ to them. Consequently, nobody knows how … to say no to them. Saying no is a lost art, like plastering.

      I agree to a large degree about the ‘crash idea’. So do a lot of other people. I don’t think it will take place tomorrow. What can be done with a perfectly serviceable tomorrow? Sleep in? Speak with a friend? Why not?

      Why write internet comments? There is a reason that speaks for itself regardless of your words: life is short, after all in the long run we are all dead!

      :)

       

       

    •  

       

      “First of all, you have no obligations to do anything, I won’t ask you to do anything (other than not beat up my other visitors). This is a discussion not the Wehrmacht. Part of the point is to see how folks feel about the future … from a more activist angle.”-Steve

      I don’t beat up on anybody who doesn’t throw the first punch :) I also find it a lot more fun to jump in the ring with somebody in the same weight class than to plaster flyweights.

      The activist angle is important, and while I don’t support the 3rd Party idea or working through conventional Political Channels, I’m certainly not out here on the net putting excess mileage on my keyboard fingers because I wanna GIVE UP and throw in the towel.

      My take on it is that we have to wait for the system to implode on itself before any realistic changes can be attempted. The population as a whole is going to have to go through some real PAIN and HARDSHIP before they will let go of the idea that perpetual growth is possible. After all, perpetual growth has had a log standing success rate here for Homo Sapiens, its been ongoing for 70,000 years since Toba knocked down the population to 10,000 Human Souls or 1000 Breeding Pairs.

      The key elements for me are preparation for the world to come, avoidance of the neighborhoods most likely to experience the worst aspects of the collapse and developing IN THEORY at least a paradigm that could be pursued afterward that would lead to a Better Tomorrow.

      I’m not a Hopeless Uber-Doomer who will capitulate to the idea that this is an Extinction Level Event. Neither do I grasp hold of Doom Lite ideas, like changing our Political Leadership or building Greeny Windmills will resolve our problems. I fit into what I call “Full Doom”, which postulates that rebuild cannot occur until all or at least most of the Conduits built throught he Age of Oil have collapsed into catastrophic failure mode. This appears to me to be already well underway.

      Meanwhile what to do? Duck and Cover. Get as far away as you can from the Collapse Center, the Big Shities built on the thermodynamic energy of Oil. Make connections locally, and work on redundant systems which can take over when the Oil based systems fail. Let the Nation State wither and die, don’t support it and in fact do the best you can to undermine its further existence. All these are Active things you can do which could help to create a Better Tomorrow.

      RE

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