Repost from a debate underway between Steve of Virginia of the Economic Undertow and RE of the Doomstead Diner on the question of whether a 3rd Party presents a Political Solution to our current spin down. The original thread on EU is Topic for Discussion.
Reverse Engineer says:
We do of course have many “3rd Parties”, just none with a snowball’s chance in hell of getting Elected on any kind of scale. Occassionally they do, Bernie Sanders is a Socialist, right?
Creating some kind of monolithic 3rd Party to represent the 99% is pretty tough, because of all those nasty subsidiary issues people get bogged down in, like Gay Marriage, Stem Cell Research, School Prayer yadda yadda.
Then you have your Eurotrash example to deal with, where new Parties pop up like Buboes all the time, the new Syriza party in Greece beign a classic example of this. So you get your Parliamentary structure with 10 different parties seated and brokering to make “coalitions” to form Goobermints and the Lock Up is just about as bad as the Two Party Farce we have.
So, while a 3rd Party is a nice idealized concept, in practicality it would do little to change the general state of Political Seizure we have going all over the world these days. There really is not a good Political Solution to the problems we are confronted with, and no I do not think simply eliminating the Carz would help the situation all that much even if you could pull this off Politically.
In all likelihood, the structure we have in place here cannot be salvaged at all, including the “democratic” institutions of Goobermint which basically just serve as Window Dressing anyhow for very powerful people who work behind the Curtain. the system will have to collapse before anything new can be rebuilt, if there is anything left to rebuild with anyhow.
A 3rd Party here in the FSofA, even if a viable one is formed will not make a difference in the way Da Goobermint is operating. The 3rd Party POTUS if elected would still face gridlock in CONgress, and eliminating all the corruption and lobbyists and Golden Parachute jobs in Banking or Industry for revolving door Congressmen is about impossible. NO financing rules will stop this action from taking place, they’ll just find back doors around it all.
The only solution is a DISSOLUTION of the FSofA Nation State Entity into many Baby Bells, an anti-trust type action. then individual regions will be more free to develop their own local solutions and own local Political Parties.
The FSofA is Too Big to Save.
Reverse Engineer says:
“RE, you are giving the establishment too much credit.”-Steve
I don’t think so. These are the same folks who wrote into existence the credit necessary to build and subsidize the Railroads, the Electrical Grid, the Interstate Highways, Goobermint Motors and of course the Internet. That is a LOL of Credit Steve, by any measure.
Who EVER really had a “choice” here about whether the Railroad would get Right of Way through their Farmhouse? Who ever really had a choice whether a Macondo Well was drilled or not? Sure, we got the EPA and other Window Dressing, but man, if the Money Masters want to Drill ANWR, bet your bottom Dollar (or really theirs) they’ll go right ahead and do that.
Describing the Tea Party as a raging success here is IMHO nonsense, that “Party” is just another piece of Window Dressing, taking money from the Koch Brothers and other monied interests. They aren’t independent in any sense of the word. Besides that, like Syriza in Greece, they buy the same idea that “Growth” can be achieved, when it cannot.
How does anyone form a 3rd party around the idea that Contraction and Shrinkage is what is necessary, when that means in practicality that the Lights will Go Out or at least regular brownouts for a while, everybody has to give up their Carz and all the mobility that allows them and everybody has to give up their Iphones and 24/7 connection to the Internet?
Any 3rd Party which does form is going to make the same tired promises every other party does, then once in office will be subjected to the same pressures resutant from a contracting economy. So then they get dumped out of office or eventually strung up by their Gonads, and the next somewhat more extreme group plops into the power vacuum.
This is the nature of the collapse as it plays out with the Political systems of control. It will of course become exacerbated when the logistical systems also begin to fail, the power grid, the JIT delivery system etc. You cannot fix that by any means, because the thermodynamic energy is not there to do it with. The whole system is built on that, you know that as well as I do.
Trying to fix the problems we have here at the Political level is like trying to fix a Car that is misfiring by replacing the Spark Plugs when the REAL problem is the Gas Tank is about EMPTY. You can drop Shiny New Plugs into the Engine, but its STILL not going anywhere.
- Update 9:30PM 5/29/2012
Reverse Engineer says:
“Meanwhile, your grandparents dealt with hard times without complaint as did mine … although I have to admit that doing so made them kinda crazy. The Depression made ‘prosperity in a can’ an entitlement rather than good luck. That is an attitude rather than a condition.”-Steve
Our GPs dealt with hard times when probably 90% of the population was still agrarian and when there really still was plenty-o-oil left to be extracted into the economy, thence and thereafter to be burned up to run the big engine of Industrialization. Besides that, there were not near so many of them running willy nilly around the planet as there are now.
The “hard times” our GPs faced would come to an end with an explosion of credit first to finance WWII, ours will not. It’s not even clear WWIII can be financed on credit this time before the system implodes. Even if it can be though, the aftermath won’t see a Marshall Plan rebuild of the Eurotrash OR a news Interstate Highways system built here in the FSofA.
Selling on the Political Level that our future is one of an ever increasingly austere lifestyle is not a message most people want to hear, EVER. Even if you predate Fossil Fuels, nobody would have been very popular saying “your kids are going to live an even WORSE life than you do”.
Now, you can make the case that the End Life here is better in the Spiritual Sense, you can hold dear the life of Monet and his paintings or the world the Founding Fathers lived in as an idealized version of reality, but fact is none of that was very sustainable EITHER. For the average J6P of those years, they had at least as many problems as we have with the current paradigm, at least personally. What they did not have was quite the level of ecological damage this paradigm does of course.
Is there a POLITICAL solution to this problem, 3rd Party or otherwise? I put it to you that there is not. It’s a catabolic collapse Steve, and ain’t NUTHIN gonna stop it now. We WILL get 3rd parties, and 4th and 5th ones also as the first 2 parties fail in providing even the most basic of services and Goobermint to the community.
This system cannot be repaired within the confines of it’s current structure, and it will, it MUST collapse before any other system can be dropped in as replacement. 3rd Parties are not the Solution. The Final Solution is the complete destruction of this paradigm and it won’t take revolt for that to occur, though this most certainly will be part of the outcome. The destruction will come organically from internal rot and the necessary obediance to the most fundamental of Natural Laws.
You CANNOT make Something from Nothing.
Update 9:30PM 5/29./2012